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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1415
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Posted - 2014.07.12 12:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
And if you actually read the skills and not just the number, you'd appreciate his point. It's deadweight skills almost certainly on a wild off-map. Before it was like ... Mechanics, HACs etc
You don't NEED links on a CS - they are highly capable straight up fighters. And if you want to nitpick, the likes of an Eos REQUIRING the shield boosts is just dumb. Or the nighthawk needing to boost all those well known caldari armor tanks.
And if you actually read the skills you would know that they DON'T NEED TO TRAIN LINK SKILLS (Other than the Link Specialist to IV).
They only need to train the LEADERSHIP skills that work without any modules on the ship, in any ship you are flying.
Additionally since Links are on a Cha map, the Leadership skills are not a wild off-map for any serious leadership pilot, they are part of the actual map plan.
Finally, you didn't just need to train BC V before to fly CS. You needed the correct Cruiser V as well for each race. So you actually had to train even more skills to V before.
So.... No, your an idiot, normally I wouldn't be so blunt but you are berating others for something you are failing at even more.
Command Ships are fine as they are.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1415
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 12:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:The vast majority of people who train the link skills on a character that's not being trained specifically as a link alt will never see any benefit from them whatsoever. This is different from training Cruiser V. People do not fit gang links to combat ships, they fit gang links to ships that are going to park right next to a POS shield or hang out at a safespot in an unprobeable setup.
You'll notice when I made the comparison to capital ships, I didn't include stuff like Drone Interfacing V or Advanced Weapon Upgrades V. Those skills actually do something for your character.
Please show me which LINK skills are on the list.
There is..... One.
Not the five you are trying to pretend are there. ONE!
The other four skills are leadership skills which benefit any gang. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1415
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 12:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because it's a Leadership skill, not a link skill. Because it works WITHOUT links.
Jeez, I thought Goons who were permitted to post on the forums actually knew how the game worked. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1415
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 13:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:
you act like links is the only use for command ships? i agree with the OP i can fly every combat ship except dictors and heavy dictors and ofc command ships it is ******** that i should train almost all leadership skills to 5 just to sit in it, there is realy no defence for this.
and speaking of this why isnt mining director 5 needed to inject orca or rorqual skills????? because lvl 1 is enough for those ships! i would love to fly command ships without links so tell me why i need to train a **** ton of skills that i dont want/need ???
Orca, requirements.
Mining Foreman V.
Hey, would you look at that, the equivalent leadership skill IS NEEDED
Who'd have thought. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1415
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 13:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:
i am talking about DIRECTOR learn to read
to specify as reading isnt your strong suit:
for orca and rorqual you only need mining foreman 5 and mining director 1 for a command ship you need 2 leadership skills @5 and the link skill also @5 that is over 3 times the time sink
Except you don't need the link skills at 5, you don't even need the link skills at 1 for a Command Ship.
You need Warfare specialist at IV, that's the ONLY link skill on the Command Ship requirements.
Mining Director = Link skill. which is NOT on Command Ships at V, or any level for the 4 primary link skills.
Mining Foreman = LEADERSHIP skill, which IS on the Command Ships.
You telling me to learn to read when you fail so badly, hilarious.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1415
|
Posted - 2014.07.12 14:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:
damn.... i was wrong
Yep, which is why the pre-req's for CS are just fine. They don't need link skills to V, only leadership skills which is a mere 8 ranks of skills between them all if I have it right.
They work with no links fitted and in any ship so they are a useful skill to have regardless. And it means anyone flying a command ship you can (well, mostly) trust to be good in a squad commander position in any other ship also. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1415
|
Posted - 2014.07.14 00:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cyno Saraki wrote:The op is right, b4 the BC skill split, I made sure to train CS 1 across all my accts due to the imba buff. Forcing new players to train racial BC V + all the leadership ones is brutal compared to the previous way.
If you bother looking at the real numbers, it's actually faster now to train into CS than it used to be.
There was just a weird loophole at the skill change over a number of people (Self included I'll admit) took advantage of to get into CS before we would otherwise have been able to. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1419
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 06:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Feyrin wrote:Xequecal wrote:Arbitrarily classifying "skills needed to use links" as not-link skills and "skills that provide bonuses to links" as link skills is the height of semantics.
The leadership skills only benefit your gang if you're the only one in the gang to have them, otherwise they do nothing.
But seriously, be honest here. If you only looked at characters created after the patch that changed the command ship skill requirements, and compared the number of pilots that can fly a command ship to the number of pilots that can fly, say, marauders or hictors, (which have similar prereqs in terms of # of raw SP) you don't think that the number of CS pilots wouldn't be a third of the other two categories or less?
People fly 100+ fleets of Tengus. People fly 100+ fleets of Ishtars. You're never going to see a 100+ Vulture fleet, even though it's similar in power level and application to the former two ships. Actually PL have a Vulture fleet that contains approximately 100+ vultures, ask CVA they have been on the receiving end sometimes. You know cause they undock and fight sometimes.
Also please show me the 100+ Marauder fleets or Black Ops BS fleets (Not 100+ Bomber fleets).
You (Xeq) are trying to compare apples & oranges here, by using a ship with a lower training multiplier and a shorter train time in general as an argument.
Command ships are harder to train into than HAC's and T3's. They should be. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1419
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 01:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Most of the command ships' fitting options allow them to be used for both, and everything in between. I honestly can't see a reason why the requirements shouldn't reflect this.
Because it doesn't need to. The current requirements are shorter than the old train and land mid way between HAC's & Marauders, where it should be.
Which skill would you remove from the general command ships skill? Remember this is a non racial skill.
Which skill would you then replace it with because CCP aren't going to shorten the overall train. That is in keeping with the theme of 'command'.
And remember CCP are trying to go away from 5 different skills on the ship itself like the old CS had, instead having the racial skill to V for T2, then the relevant specialist skill. Since that keeps it smooth & easy to work out what is needed rather than labyrinthine skill trees like the old CS versions. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1419
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 02:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dally Lama wrote:The solution is for CCP to add another group of T2 battlecruisers. Slightly worse resist profile, slightly better damage output, no links.
Trying to argue that CS should have requirements cut down because the requirements are seldom taken advantage of is not a good argument IMO. They should instead be adjusting the ship so it's more often used in it's proper role. They can then add the new class mentioned above for combat T2 BC.
EDIT: Removing for example armor warfare requirements from caldari ships would make sense though.
The problem is there is no special armour warfare requirement for Caldari Ships.
There is a requirement for the General all races Command Ships skill.
Which is needed for any of the races command ships. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1430
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:
TLDR; Have lvl 5 command link requirements only pertain to the links they get bonuses for.
Again, there are no Level 5 link skills required. Only leadership skills. Which are different because they work without a module.
And are only a *2 Multi.
Also there is not a 'Caldari Command ships' skill. There is 'Command Ships'. No Race involved, and CCP have been working on going away from extra requirements on the ships other than the Level 5 Racial skill and the T2 skill. Because that creates bad complexity where people train the lvl 5 racial skill, the T2 skill then discover they still can't fly that ship.
So.... No. Keep it simple.
As for Bohneik, Multiple accounts have nothing to do with flying in a fleet. Most fleets don't want you multi boxing even, especially in booster spots since multiboxing ups chances of a crash.
Yes, leadership skills don't let you explore everything, of course, being Battle Cruisers that are at the large end of sub caps, firstly they aren't meant to be as fast to train into as HAC's, so you should already have that engineering skill. Secondly they are fleet ships. People don't train into Interdictors then complain they aren't super fast solo ships for PvP. People train into Interdictors to work with a fleet. Use the right tool for the right job. It's meant to be a fleet ship. The fact it can be used solo is a bonus on top of that ability. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 13:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Also: Read where I mention that it takes less time for me to train Marauders than CBC's. If I cared about the actual number of days, I'd harp on this.
Except it doesn't take you less days to train for a Marauder than a Command Ship.
It takes you more, unless you deliberately make your training as slow as possible and don't bother with a cha implant. In which case if you are trying to claim that taking the worst possible case scenario and using that as your baseline, you are showing exactly how desperate you are in this thread. So... Thanks I guess for harping on about that in most of your posts. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 22:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Emma Muutaras wrote:from a brand new toon to train into a max boosting toon it would take around 353 days this is all specializations for links to 5, wing command 5 and CBC 5 this does not include any support skills at all this is only links skills.
with support skills this train would easily reach 500 days.
the question is is that a bad thing? CBC's are top end ships that specialize it fleet boasting there skill train should take quite awhile still 500 days does seam a little much
To max out any ship takes a very long train. Maxing out a ship class is different from being effective, All V's are never needed. Just nice to have. Boosts can be used fine with 1's even. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 23:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
55 Days is not 'months'.
And 25 Days for HAC skills is not 'almost instantly'
Tug on the emotive heart strings all you want, but the mice don't lie.
Same as trying to tug on the skill change to racials. Yes people got 'free' sp, that allowed them to do exactly what they had access to before. So it's actually a penalty to those people, not a bonus because it added 7 Million SP to their clone costs and they got zero abilities.
Now, if you are trying to make a case that the entire BC class feels like it lacks a decent slot in the current Meta of EVE, that's an entirely different point, possibly valid, but for a different thread.
P.S. Command ships use Medium weapons. As do most of the T1's. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 23:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Attack BC's (There are no T3's any more) are not the only BC's that see use any more. You are confusing Null Blob warfare and anom farming with the entire game. Please don't.
Also you are confused on HAC requirements, go and read them.
And the Split of BC to racial skills was nothing to do with access to Command Ships.
That was a change to Command Ship skill requirements, which gave no-one any extra skill points at all. Stop getting things wrong, seriously. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 09:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Xequecal wrote:...Battlecruiser V, which makes the skill another long annoying timesink for them. Which skills that specialize in the Leadership role and would still keep the skill time at 100+ days would be not an "annoying timesink[sic]"? You know that you are playing EVE Online, right? A game meant to be a long term game that is not meant to give you the majority of the available toys after a couple of months or even a year, right? If you and other new players don't get that, you and they are playing the wrong game. Honestly, anything would be fine with me as long it's not a double timesink like BC V and the CHA skills are now. There doesn't seem to be much logic behind the other T2 prereqs so lets say that instead of the CHA skills, you need Cap Management V, Thermodynamics V, and Nanite Operation V.
Basically he wants skills that he already has trained rather than having to train a new area that might help someone else other than him :) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 10:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:If you want to really help your space friends to enjoy the game, you log on, organize things, chat with people, help out newbros, learn to fc and take fleets out, become a good scout (aka 'juicy target finder'), fly logi or ewar, haul stuff for the corp, fit ships for the corp, refuel towers, etc. etc.
The notion that waiting an year or two for skills to train helps people is ludicrous.
The notion that 100 days (From absolute zero) is a year or two is also |
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